Computer Technology Schools

[Cindy]

There are smart people in many different walks of life. It is profoundly sad that in your arrogance you cannot see or admit this. Don't confuse intelligence with knowledge. So much of what you say leads me to believe that you think that good marks in high school prove you're smart and bad marks prove you're not. My goodness, it is high school, not rocket science.

Perhaps the people in Canada are more homogenous, but here in the US there are many different belief systems, many social and cultural reasons why some quite bright young people might not go to college.

I do feel bad for you because your parents were unable or unwilling to help you with tuition and living expenses.

North America is a continent, not a country. It does include Mexico. Are you saying Mexicans are dumb? Not many of them go to college. Even the ones who are residents or citizens of the US - not many go to college. Can you really deny that there are social and cultural factors involved? This is why I said you are young. I apologize for that, but it does seem you judge everything by how it is in your town and your high school.

 

[Chankama]

It is profoundly sad that in your arrogance you cannot see or admit this.

Again, I see that you are going down this road. Is it THAT difficult for you to carry a discussion without doing this?

For the record, I didn't say ANYTHING about myself until you forced my hand. I was merely "responding" to your comment that suggested that I am naive and "very young" - for essentially disagreeing with you. . You are the one that felt the need to mention you have an MBA out of nowhere, for absolutely no apparent reason. Does you having an MBA give your argument any more weight? Of course not.

Don't confuse intelligence with knowledge.

I didn't. And I hope you don't either. In fact, I actually highlighted two words in "red" in my previous message to make sure that you don't make that confusion.

So much of what you say leads me to believe that you think that good marks in high school prove you're smart and bad marks prove you're not. My goodness, it is high school, not rocket science.

It is most definitely not rocket science. It IS high school. The easiest of all endevours. Without sounding "arrogant", it should be said that a "smart" person should be able to finish it without much effort at all. You think all the people that get high marks in high school actually "work for it"?.. lol..

As I made it explicitly clear in my previous message, the reason why I picked high school as a comparison point was b/c that is where everyone is in the same boat. I believe that is as a fair comparison point as you can get. I mean for goodness sakes, HOW can someone who claim that they are intelligent possibly do bad in high school?!

I do feel bad for you because your parents were unable or unwilling to help you with tuition and living expenses.

Don't be. They offered. But, I didn't take it. Once I entered college, I didn't want to be a burden to them. I worked, I paid my tuition, and when I couldn't, I took governmental/bank loans. This is not a difficult concept. Every kid who wants to go to university can do this. In fact, that is what most of my friends did.

North America is a continent, not a country. It does include Mexico. Are you saying Mexicans are dumb? Not many of them go to college. Even the ones who are residents or citizens of the US - not many go to college. Can you really deny that there are social and cultural factors involved? This is why I said you are young. I apologize for that, but it does seem you judge everything by how it is in your town and your high school.

I apologize for my generalization of "North America". Since there are many Canadians and US ppl on this website, all of us usually refer to {US, Canada} combination as "North America". I didn't mean to include Mexico when I said that.

As for the Mexicans living in North America, it is unfortunate if they don't go to university. Or Black people living in gangster style neighborhoods. Or white people living in farm land.

Certain ones own beliefs as to what is important in this world plays a huge factor. For the above mentioned groups, it is probably not education. Are they stupid? Of couse not. They simply have different priorities in life. Not due to lack of choice, simply b/c they don't know any better. But that doesn't say anything about their intelligence.

And even in those particular groups, some of them would have gone to university. Take the average intelligence of the group that did go to university, vs the group that stayed behind, and who do you think would score higher points?

Within "each" such group that you can possibly think of, the subgroup that have gone to university would have a higher level of intelligence than who had not. And if you take a collection of such groups, then the people from all the groups that have gone to university, will be more intelligent.

In all of my messages, I was careful in using the words "on average" (or a variant of). Of course there smart people who have never been to university. But, I was speaking from a global viewpoint, so to speak. And employers find this a sufficiently important measure that if a person does not have a univeristy education, they immediately lose points.

 

[Cindy]

Are they stupid? Of couse not. They simply have different priorities in life.

That's my point.

It's not fair to judge people's intelligence by whether or not they have a degree. And, I hope you will forgive me for this, but I find it arrogant to do so.

And I disagree with this on more than one level:

the most fundamental reason why employers ask for a college/university degree is b/c typically the intelligence level of those with a degree is significantly higher than those who do not.

I have made it clear that I think it is unfair to judge intelligence with such a simple criteria, but I also disagree as to why many employers prefer degreed workers.

It is knowledge, research skills, and exposure to teamwork that employers feel a degreed worker will be more likely to have. All the things that colleges are supposed to provide.

Now if you said that employers prefer Harvard degrees because only smart people will have one, well, I would have to say I cannot argue. But it doesn't take an exceptionally smart person to go to a university. I am reminded of this every time I go to my nephew's high school for a program. The majority of the faculty members are quite inarticulate and seem terribly shallow to me. All are degreed of course, yet I think they would never make it in the corporate world.

 

[raross]

I think both of you have good points. Cindy is correct, because there are a lot of smart people without degrees. Although in todays world you will not be able to do anything without one, so In that aspect the other guy is right. Forty years ago, not everyone needed a degree, but in todays, if you dont get a 4 year degree you will be working that dish washer job (or just about). It is so hard to get experience now a days even with a degree, so you can imagine it is just about impossible to get experience without one.

 

[NIN]

You are not getting the picture. He wasn't calling people that don't go to college stupid.

He simply said that people with a degree have something to show to employers and may have more knowledge than someone who doesn't. After all, they had to go though hours of studing to get it. It will set you apart from the thousands of other resumes. Also, someone who works that hard is most likely more serious to continue his hard work in the workplace.

Raross, you hit the nail on the head with that last post.

Peace,
Tom

 

[Cindy]

Show me where you are getting this:

He simply said that people with a degree have something to show to employers and may have more knowledge than someone who doesn't.

That sounds like what I have been saying, not what he has been saying.

THIS is what he said:

the intelligence level of those with a degree is significantly higher than those who do not.

 

[DaPunnisher]

It's not fair to judge people's intelligence by whether or not they have a degree. And, I hope you will forgive me for this, but I find it arrogant to do so.

You flame my website then you flame me, yet you claim it's not fair and arrogant to judge a person's intelligence? Pretty ignorant if you ask me! You should be pointing the finger at yourself, sister!

 

[Cindy]

Aboslutely without provocation, you called me a b-word. Now you are accusing ME of flaming?

 

[Chankama]

Well.. I've been busy for a couple of days, and wasn't able to reply to this thread.

Show me where you are getting this:
That sounds like what I have been saying, not what he has been saying.

Actually, I did say that as well. People who go to university obviously have more knowledge. Remember that message that I highlighted in red?

Even after I mentioned words like "on average" or "typically" in all of my messages and said that there are "some" people who are really intelligent and without a college education (obviously) - you continued to debate with me. So naturally, it is safe to conclude that you were taking a population viewpoint as well.

So, with all the fluff aside, what you are essentially saying that the people that have a university education are not necessarily more "intelligent" than the people that doesn't have one.

That being said, let me first say that University does not necessarily improve ones intelligence. No one in this thread has said that. However, the people that "enter" university IMO "on average" *$*, are more intelligent than the others to "begin with". University entrants typically have higher marks in high school (in general) and they have a higher thirst for knowledge (some of them). If you think high school is not a good measure of a person's intelligence, we can debate about it yet again. It just so happens, high school is where all the people are on the same playing field. Management students, Engineering students from [Crap] University, Engineering Students from [Amazing] University, Life Sciences students, High school dropouts, community college students, etc. etc. etc.

*$*(I said "on average" b/c not ALL smart people enter university)

Back in the day, the thirst for knowledge of some people could not be satisfied by going to university - since there probably weren't many around. So people did their own research - which in turn created the foundatations of modern science and mathematics and astronomy, etc. These days, instead of reinventing the wheel, the "smart people" who have a high thirst for knowledge, simply go to university.

As I've said before, only "some" people go to university due to their thirst for knowledge. Others go b/c they want to find a job. Well, the thing is, to enter university, you need good marks. "Good marks" is a relative measure of course. But for every dumb university student, there is a dumber person who doesn't have a university degree.

Don't compare the smartest people WITHOUT a uni education with the dumbest people WITH one. Compare the smartest people with a university education with the smartest people without one. And the dumbest people with a university education with the dumbest people without one.

Obviously, there are many highly intelligent people without much formal education. But "on average", who do you think will win out? I mean really. Why is this even a debate. Please don't say, "I was talking of individual people", b/c u weren't.

I have made it clear that I think it is unfair to judge intelligence with such a simple criteria, but I also disagree as to why many employers prefer degreed workers.

It is knowledge, research skills, and exposure to teamwork that employers feel a degreed worker will be more likely to have. All the things that colleges are supposed to provide.

Employers know that if a person has a degree, the probability of that person having a higher intelligence is greater. They are better at problem solving. This is not a revelation. In fact, many employers are really interested in a person's problem solving abilities. Of course, they are interested in their knowledge and team work stills as well. But, don't tell me that their problem solving skills are not important. Ever wonder why some employers don't even care whether your degree is related to the work? You might say team work skills and research. Well you get that in high school too. I mean high school is 12 years, and university is 4?

As for your comment about the "Latino" population, I already addressed that as well. Even in that population, the people that went to university should have a higher intelligence than those who didn't - on average. It maybe that the average intelligence of the non-university people in the latino population is "higher" than of the white population - due to socio-cultural issues. However, there just isn't enough people in that particular population to shift the intelligent score "mean"s significantly close to each other. Obviously, I hope you can see this. If not, let me know.

 

[DaPunnisher]

Aboslutely without provocation, you called me a b-word. Now you are accusing ME of flaming?

This was no attack, my dear, merely a provacative exclamation to end my sentence. A term of endearment, if you will. I think somebody is being a bit self concious. :amazed: